Why do "messianic jews" hide the fact that David Koresh & the Branch Davidians identified as "messianic jews"?

Update:

Magnolia: Then you can point out to me any "messianic jewish" website that lists the Branch Davidians as a "messianic jewish" comunity if they don't hide it, right? Or you can explain why the last time I asked this question it got a violation notice even though it is fully in line with all guidelines of Yahoo! Answers

Update 2:

Here is a list of the "messianic jewish" communities worldwide (at least according to them) Note: no Branch Davidians

http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles/community/lis...

Update 3:

I thanks Invisible Man for proving my point for me atr how desperate the "messianic jews" are to hide the fact that the Branch Davidians (including those still around) identify themselves as "messianic jews". Or perhaps he can explain why the Branch Davidian compound has a door labelled "messianic jews" if they don't think they are "messianic jews"?

http://dan.tobias.name/controversies/davidian/

Update 4:

And another "messianic jew" arrives to prove my point! The Branch Davidians identify themselves as "messianic jews" but they are desperate to try and claim otherwise! No why is that?

Update 5:

http://www.branch-davidianhistory.net/about.aspx

See the above link to see the Branch Davidians identifying themselves as "messianic jews" and Benjamin Roden, the head of the cult before Koresh, as the first "messianic jew"

Update 6:

Well it seems the "messianic jews" are desperate to try and portray the Branch Davidians as anything besides "messianic jews", thus proving the basis of this question! They seem to want to deliberately ignore what the Branch Davidians say about themselves and quote a whole lot of extraneous sites while ignoring the Branch Davidians! And of course, in their attempts to try andd eny the fact that the Branch Davidians refer to themselves as "messianic jews", they attack real Jews and insult people who dare to state the truth!

Update 7:

Well it seems the "messianic jews" are desperate to try and portray the Branch Davidians as anything besides "messianic jews", thus proving the basis of this question! They seem to want to deliberately ignore what the Branch Davidians say about themselves and quote a whole lot of extraneous sites while ignoring the Branch Davidians! And of course, in their attempts to try andd eny the fact that the Branch Davidians refer to themselves as "messianic jews", they attack real Jews and insult people who dare to state the truth!

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  • 8 years ago
    Best answer

    During the time of the Waco incident at “Mt. Carmel” in 1993, a door at the compound prominently displayed “Messianic Jews” another door displayed a menorah. And prominently displayed upon one building’s outer wall was a full color painted symbol of their movement that has a Mogen David (you can find on display at the Branch Davidian link as their movement did not disappear) below. Yes, their particular version of “Messianic Judaism” is indeed an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventists.

    But then, every New Testament adherent group that hijacks the name of Judaism with that term is an offshoot of and supported by a Christian group and not part of Judaism.. Obviously, from the answers from other New Testament adherents supported by different evangelizing groups, they give evidence here under this question that they distance themselves from the Branch Davidian “Messianic Jews”. The question did not ask ( as it did not NEED to ) IF they identified themselves as “Messianic Jews” as do the other New Testament adherents distancing themselves from Christianity and their fellow “Messianic Jewish” claimants, it asked WHY the OTHER groups who self-identify as “Messianic Jews” try to HIDE that the Branch Davidians are “Messianic Jews” in self-identity..and if THEY claim they have the right to this designation with New Testament doctrine..it begs the question. Why shouldn’t the “Branch Davidians” who have used that term actually longer than some of the other Christian movements be likewise "entitled" to hijack Jewish identity with their own redefinition of Judaism?

    The Seventh Day Adventists were EARLY sign on’s to the “Messianic Judaism” Christian evangelizing movement. http://adventistmessianicfellowship.com/

    http://www.branch-davidianhistory.net/about.aspx < Branch Davidian History in their own words. Read this and THEN try to fool people that they did not and do not consider themselves to be “Messianic Jews” On their BASICS about them page I quote

    “that, Benjamin Roden was the first Messianic Jew to teach and proclaim the New Name of Messiah (The Branch) in the latter days to a body of New Covenant Sabbath keepers of the Ten Tribes (Joseph-Ephraim) and to greater Israel. (Rev. 3:12).”

    While it *is* true that their beliefs DIFFER from the earlier Baptist Missions to the Jews that changed their name and identity many years later and became widely known as “Messianic Judaism” around 1967, the Seventh Day Adventists had within their followers a belief they were the “real” Jews before the Baptist based groups such as that of self-identified Baptist missionary Leopold Cohn and his Brownsville Mission to the Jews. Interestingly, Cohn, who did NOT self-identify as a “Messianic Jew” has often been portrayed as one, while David Koresh and his Branch Davidians who DID identify as “Messianic Jews” in their own words have other “Messianic Jews” try to strip them of their self-professed identity.

    Actual Jews of every movement know that neither competing group have any connection to Judaism.

    Wikipedia’s articles on the Branch Davidians have changed and had things removed and replaced several times just like their article on the Baptist Missionary I wrote about yesterday..In fact, that article SUPPORTS what Allonyoav is ASKING about. Why is there effort to HIDE the fact that the Seventh Day Adventist splinter group “Branch Davidians” OPENLY self-identify as “Messianic Jews” and why is there effort to HIDE the fact that Seventh Day Adventists have supported OTHER “Messianic Jewish” “synagogues” and STILL DO..in the U.S. AND In Israel?

    *To claim otherwise is the blatant lie.*

    The Branch Davidian and other Adventist “Messianic Jewish” groups are competing ministries vying for legitimacy as the “real” Jews, while each are simply competing versions of New Testament Christian dogma cloaked in Hebrew trappings. Evidence here also indicates insulting lengths to distance their own various and competing Messianic Judaism groups from the Seventh Day Adventist one. It appears they wish to distance themselves in denial over the violence created within their movement, and the fact that it is a movement calling themselves “Messianic Jews” whose statements of faith do not support Protestant ideology or British Israelite ideology as some posting here have professed in belief before.

    I think they want to hide the fact that violence and mental illness has been a part of the Branch Davidian version of Messianic Judaism for a long time. Koresh’s violence had been proven in 1987, when he and 25 followers attempted to take the compound at Mt. Carmel from George Roden by force. He was unsuccessful, but was able to purchase the property in 1990. Roden murdered his roommate with an ax in 1989 and was sent to a mental institution. Did you note that name? Roden..the son of the originator of their “Messianic Jewish” movement.

    In 1993 we know what happened next.

    Source(s): edit: Rick Ross is a self-procliamed cult expert, but a twice convicted ex-felonhttp://www.rrexposed.u2k.biz/rr_convicted_felon.ht... Is this really who you're going to use to insult a respected user of Yahoo who has presented objective evidence? He is asking WHY Messianics such those here,deny others who self-identify as Messianic Jews do not include them in lists. He doesn't ask if they also identify themselves as Messianic Jews like IM and Devoted 1 do, No New Testament adherent groups are part of Judaism. EDIT2: To label the NT doctrine of an incarnate deity and human sacrifice for sin Torah observant is like calling a T-bone a great vegan meal. Bodalan: Yet another "messianic" who refuses the right of other self-identified "messianics" to the same sense of entitlement he displays! EDIT Why would Christians think they need to ARGUE that Koresh & his group were fellow Christians? No argument from me there!
  • 8 years ago

    I have never heard them hide this but most do not know what David Koresh believed. He has been dead for quite awhile and rarely comes up in conversation.

  • Koresh made lots of claims but had no relationship with any Messianic Community.

    There are two kinds of Jews. Jews that believe that Jesus is the Messiah and Jews that don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. The non Messianic Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Messianic ones do. The non Messianic Jews include Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Beta Israel, Karaites and Donmeh. There are also Jews called Jewiches (Wiccan Jews) and Jewbus (Buddhist Jews).

    Some have said that that Judaism is a Messianic religion and that all Jews are Messianic but this has only come about since the incredible popularity of the Messianic movement. So some non Messianic Jews appear to be trying to steal the Messianic name.

    A person becomes a Jew by being born of a Jewish mother or converting to Judaism. Once a person is a Jew they are always a Jew. "Branch Davidians" never claimed to have Jewish parents.

    Jews are practicing Paganism (Jewitch), becoming Buddhists (Jewbu) and joining the Unitarian Church and they will say that they are still Jews. Yet you will never see any complaints about that. (please google these terms and see for yourself.) You will never see a group forming for the sole purpose of stopping Jews from becoming Jewitches!

    Jews can join other religions and still be considered Jews Examples of this are Jewbus (Jewish Buddhists), Jewitches (Pagan or Wiccan Jews) and Donmeh (Muslim Jews).

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=4...

    The Donmeh and the followers of Rabbi Schneerson also believe that the Messiah has already come although they don't believe in the same Messiah as the Messianic Jews they are still considered Jews. The Jewish encyclopedia refers to both of these groups as Jews Since you can practice other religions and still be a Jew you should still be a Jew if you believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

    Jews will admit that Christianity started out as a sect of Judaism and that Jesus and all the apostles were Jews. They will also tell you that Jews that are trying to live that life are not Jews. So you know that all the rules are being bent for this one group. It’s just a matter of prejudice.

    Someone asked a question about worshiping the Fire God Ferris here on Yahoo. The focus of the question was" ...would you PERSONALLY feel comfortable welcoming me not just as a fellow congregant at your Synagogue, but as a member of the Tribe?" (so he was clearly asking about converting to Judaism).

    The response was "Reform Judaism covers a wide swath of beliefs and practices and I am sure you will be wholly accepted. ... I personally would accept you whole heartily as a fellow Jew."

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AkytT...

    My assumption here is that you are attempting to claim that the "Branch Davidians" are actually Jews but they are not because they were not Jews to begin with.

  • 8 years ago

    What is your point? Messianic Jews are crazy?

    David Koresh had some strange ideas, whether he was a Messianic Jew depends on who you ask. Most will tell you he was from an offshoot of 7th Day Adventists.

    There are unbalanced people within every religion. I don't go around posting that Orthodox Jews are crazy just because an occasional jew commits a horrible murder. Take Levi Aron for instance, he killed a defenseless little boy. Should Orthodox jews be blamed? Of course not.

    99.999% of Messianic Jews in the mid 90's never met the man. He didn't spend time at Messianic Jewish retreats or conferences. Why would they claim him?

    The government found out about him when they were a peaceful group. The government doesn't like Sabbath keeping believers who are not Jewish. Conform or else! They took care of him and his followers. I visited the compound (what was left of it) a month after the fire. Sad, truly sad.

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  • Dalan
    Lv 5
    8 years ago

    First off, why do you mention Branch Dividians like it was something extremely bad? Were they ever convicted of anything? They never proved anything on David Koresh.

    The Branch dividians were out of the Adventist group, not Messianic Believers/Jews.

    Yes, they had a different life style, but I bet you do too, compared to many who claim to be Jewish. So does that make you something bad or evil? No.

    Janet Reno and Bill Clinton wanted to flex some muscle and they chose a Sabbath keeping, Bible believing gun owning group to do it on. The same goes for the Ruby Ridge incident in Idaho.

    It seems that you are the one who has a problem with the Messianic Jews and are trying to paint any bad picture of them that you can. This isn't about David Koresh, it's about your "dislike" for those who believe in a different Messiah than you and live by the Torah and not mans rules

    Your list of "messianic Jewish communities" published by the Jerusalem Council means what? My congregation doesn't live by another "councils" dictates. But that doesn't mean we aren't Messianic Believers, just because someone in another country, even Israel, says we aren't.

    Nice try, maybe next time you can find some "real" dirt on the Messianic community.

  • Mama PJ and Allonyovah think they know something the FBI doesn't? LOL!

    Here, read this, thanks in part to the FBI: http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/jphuck/Book15Ch.6.htm...

    THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS. The Branch Davidian cult was an offshot of the Seventh Day Adventist Church (SDA). Like the SDA, Branch Davidians believe in an imminent Second Coming. The credibility of the Seventh Day Adventists was damaged in 1843 when they incorrectly predicted an apocalypse.

    In the 1930s, an Seventh Day Adventist, Victor Houteff, claimed that he was God's new prophet for the church. His claims were immediately rejected by the church, and he was forced to leave. Houteff formed the "Davidian Seventh Day Adventists," also known as "The Shepherd's Rod." Houteff died in 1955, and his widow Florence Houteff took over the leadership. She soon was confronted by Ben Roden who claimed that God had chosen him. Just as the Seventh Day Adventists incorrectly predicted an apocalypse at century earlier, she too was devastated when her claim to a Second Coming failed in 1959. The cult was sued by many of their own members who had bought land close to the supposed site of the Visitation.

    Roden then formed the Branch Davidian Seventh-day Adventists, recruiting a large number of Davidian Seventh Day Adventists to his cause. He introduced the observance of various Hebrew feast days, including Passover, Pentecost, the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles. In 1978 Roden died, and his widow Lois became president of the cult. She claimed to have been shown by God that the Holy Spirit was the feminine aspect of the trinity.

    Branch Davidians believe God is guiding his Church into more and more truth. They constantly expect "New Light" to be shown by God to his or her people. The prophets are the means by which God reveals New Light, but this is always by drawing out the real meaning of texts from the Bible. Branch Davidians believe God has two revelations to humanity -- one in Jesus Christ and one at the end of time. This corresponds to the sacrifices prescribed in the Old Testament. The identity of the lamb at the end of time could be established as the one who is able to explain the Seven Seals of Revelation.

    Later David Koresh claimed that he was able to explain the Seven Seals, and therefore he claimed that he was the second Messiah.

    Source(s): More on above link.
    • Oh ye of many lost accounts the FBI took the photo of the door at Waco with their written lettering "Messianic Jews" upon it.

  • Anonymous
    8 years ago

    Branch Davidians (1955) resulted from a schism in the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists that began within the Seventh Day Adventist church around 1930. The term 'Davidian' reflects their belief in the restoration of the Davidic kingdom in Israel before Christ's second coming. Perhaps that is where allonyoav gets the idea they were Messianic Jews. But for whatever reason, he's wrong and is just trying to insult us.

    Thankfully, we have Yahweh on our side.

    D1

  • 8 years ago

    They like playing hide and go seek.

    Source(s): Your friendly neighborhood atheist polar bear XD
  • DS M
    Lv 6
    8 years ago

    Why? Because no one seems to want to define what makes a Jew a Jew in definitive terms. Otherwise, how could the Polydox Jews call themselves Jews?

    Please, Rabbi, teach us! Define Judaism past

    ***A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism. It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do...a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox.*** http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

    If we had a better definition of Judaism, everyone could tell who was and who was not a Jew. It would be a fair and clear way of solving this problem. What is that Jews are trying to HIDE if their identity is important? Nothing could be MORE important to ones identity than to actually be able to DEFINE who you are?

    Without the God of Israel leading us as He lead all of Israel as described by the Torah...and not the prophecy as the 6th principle of the Jewish faith states...we will continue to have those like Zakkai distorting the interpretation of Jews maintained by the prophet, those who rebuilt the Temple and those who rededicated the Temple to give us Chanukkah.

    Take Reform Judaism for example:

    Dr. Kaufman Kohler saying things like ***“We consider their [the Holy scripture’s] composition, their arrangements and their entire contents as the work of men, betraying in their conceptions of the world shortcomings of their age;”***

    and Rabbis defining their faith as ***“Agnostic;” “Atheist;” “Bahai in spirit, Judaic in practice;” “Polydoxist;” “Religious Existentialist;” and “Theological Humanist.”*** in a survey conducted by ***the Central Conference of American [Reform] Rabbis*** Obviously, you can't hide the largest sect of Judaism but is it true you try to hide what an umbrella term Judaism has grown to be by making like all Jews believe the same things?

    As your article said, this group was a splinter group off the Seventh Day Adventist's who then called themselves "Messianic Jews". Are Messianic Jews a Baptist group as you say, a Seventh Day Adventist Group as your article says, or a Jewish group like the NT says?

    If you are going to continue to call Messianics a Baptist group and not a Seventh Day Adventist Messianic group, then, it is hypocritical of you for to believe DK's group is Jewish.

    Obviously, something is causing you to want to reach out to the Messianic Community and we appreciate you desire to do good as your form of Judaism teaches. But how did you come to this new understanding?

    Is it the God of Israel giving you this revelation or is this another example how little you study before making definitive statements that you later have to change? Please tell us why you are unable to publicly state what makes a Jew a Jew in this case?

    As you said ***So what does Orthodox think of converts to Reform Judaism? In the case of religion: generally as righteous gentiles...***

    the Messianic Jewish community thinks even less of the DK community.

    You were able to make a definitive list for Aravah saying ***Aravah said "Some Orthodox will accept you as well, especially if your conversion was fairly strict and you are very observant."- this is NOT the case. Due to the issues I have listed above, Reform conversions are NEVER accepted by Orthodox.***

    You didn't waffle on Reform Judaism? Why are you waffling on Messianic Judaism?

    Allonyoav, please define what makes a Jew a Jew. If you don't, then you prove DK's point. He has every right to call himself a Jew because there is nothing in your definition to discredit his claim.

    Of course, if you define what makes a Jew a Jew as you did with Aravah, then you prove our point in that DK wasn't Jewish.

    Either way, your red herring is nullified by your arguments. Pick which one of your answers you would like to believe and go with that....and still not be able to say what the God of Israel made you to do which defines who you are or what He wants His congregation that you are leading to do which gives a congregation their identity given to them by God.

    Hope this helps

  • 8 years ago

    I heard they were Orthodox Jews.

    They certainly weren't Christians.

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