Why do Messianic "Jews" ignore the actual complaints that Jews have with their movement?
The complaints should not be hard to understand: One cannot be Jewish and Christian at the same time, any more than one could be Satanist and Christian at the same time. And yet, Messianic "Jews" dedicate billions of dollars to target the Jewish religion--and only the Jewish religion--with lies that say otherwise, and then complain that they do not get along with Jews for any reason but the actual crux of the matter.
So, my question is simple: Is there a reason rooted in the theology of the Messianic movement that promotes such intellectual dishonesty when it comes to debates with Jews?
- ✡mama pajama✡Lv 710 years agoBest answer
The New Testament isn't Judaism. It never has been and never will be. Jews don't ask that others abandon their choice of dogma to follow, we simply ask for honesty that adherents of a religious doctrine whose core tenets of faith contradict and violate the Torah's commandments for the religion of Judaism,don't hijack our name and insult us when we explain Judaism.
Torah teaches that God does not become a man & is core part of Judaism and what differentiated it from most of the religions of the ancient Levant. That won’t ever change. The Christian Bible's concept of messiah fits Jesus. The beliefs of those who call themselves “Messianic Jews” fit the New Testament doctrine of the nature of God, sin, and their concept of messiah is at odds with that of the Jewish religion. When Jews are explaining the differences, not once has any Jew told the Christian that they're damned or evil for choosing to believe their doctrine of the New Testament!
All of Judaism contains within it the prophetic vision/belief of the Davidic messiah and messianic age when the entire world will know God and know all humans as brethren. There is no form of Judaism that is known by the name of "Messianic Judaism". The concept and job description &nature of God and the Davidic messiah in the Tanakh is simply VERY different from that of the redefined roles found in the books called the NT
ALL movements of Judaism are in complete agreement that this is an assault to Jewish identity by people who profess faith in the doctrine of the NT. Jews do not tell them what to believe, but inform the world that these people do not represent the Jewish people in any manner and that what they teach is not Judaism. These groups whose statement of beliefs match those of evangelical and primarily Protestant denominations and conflict Judaism,appear offended at being called Christian. It is not up to the Jewish people to give the adherents of another religion a name, nor is it up to us to tell them how to conduct their services. They declare that we (Jews) do not have a right to name them. That's true. I have never expressed any condemnation for their right to worship whom or whatevery they wish to worship. Of course they have a right to define themselves, but they do *not* have a right to identity theft, or to redefine and negate the religion of Judaism.Torah has always obligated Jews to speak out when any attempt to impose avodah zarah(foreign god worship) into Judaism was introduced. (Read the book of Ezekiel )The Jewish people clearly understand that the people calling themselves "Messianic Jews" believe in the NT doctrine. That is precisely why we know they're not following any form of Judaism. The NT is replacement theology and no more relevant to the Jewish people than the Quran is to the Christian.The fact that they follow no form of Judaism is NOT OPINION but Jewish LAW of the eternal covenant. They are not of the Jewish religion so they may not speak to redefine or negate Judaism.
They are most definitely free to believe whatever they want to believe. Mazel Tov on their choice of following the New Testament doctrine if this is a path that calls to them. They simply will never ever be able to call it Jewish belief, or any form of Judaism or be identified with the Jewish people without Jews being forced to speak out to the obvious and declare that is not true. Jews are obligated by God's commands in the Torah to speak out if anyone calls worship of or through a human a form of Judaism. A group of people comprised of less than 10% apostate Jews who do not follow any form of Judaism, but take Hebrew language, Jewish customs and holidays and impose replacement theology into those things, does not get to redefine or hijack the identity of the Jewish people and name of Judaism to describe their religion. *If they do not want to call adherence to the NT Christian, that's not a Jewish concern!*
The name of JUDAISM regarding a religion cannot be honestly applied to a belief system that contradicts the core affirmation of faith and laws that determine who and what is and isn't of that covenant of faith. The NT concept of the nature, role and function of "messiah" and their messianic notions are not Judaism. I am a monotheistic Jew. There is absolutely no trinity or tripartate deity in Judaism. There is absolutely no need to designate any particular branch of Judaism as monotheistic. It is every bit as illogical and redundant to have a phrase naming a separate branch or movement of the Jewish religion as "Messianic Judaism". This isn't a schism within Judaism but an attempt to negate Judaism, as evidenced by the invention of an utterly nonsensical term some of their adherents have used to insult Judaism by calling IT.."non-messianic"! That is a clear and obvious attempt to negate the prophetic vision of the Davidic messiah that remains in Judaism!
Rather than address what believing Jews declare, there continue to appear false accusations of hatred and persecution for their BELIEFS, no matter how many times believing Jews tell them quite honestly that it is not over their choice of what to believe but over their choice to *misrepresent Judaism* that is the problem. Why has Jewish identity has left the arena of Jewish law and entered into “debate” with non-Jewish public opinion often being given more credibility for legitimacy than that of the Jewish community? Why should the right of the Jewish people to determine Jewish identity through Jewish law be up for debate at all? Until they come up with a name that does not misrepresent the religion of Judaism, we simply have no other name to call them than what they were FORMERLY known as, Hebrew Christians. The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America was known by that name from it's beginning in 1915 until 1975. The term "Messianic Judaism" began around 1967 according to "Christianity Today" magazine in a 1998 cover story. Their statements of faith are in contradiction to the statements of belief Judaism. Every Chief Rabbi and Jewish organization of every movement on every continent, every Jewish community and every Jewish user from five continents here in Yahoo are in full agreement. The assault to the rights of Jewish people to maintain Jewish identity through Jewish law is hostile to Jews and is escalating antisemitism by teaching in falsehood that Jews hate them because they believe in Jesus! That essentially says Jews hate Christians for their beliefs and that is a lie that has been the direct cause of the deaths and persecutions of millions of Jews over the centuries.
There are several groups/cults of Christians that attempt to replace and eliminate the world's Jewish people and the religion of Judaism by claiming that *they* are the "real" Israel or "real" covenant people by hijacking identity such as the Black Hebrew Israelites, the British Israelites and the White Supremacist Christian Identity, but strangely, the "Messianic" evangelicals who insist they are Jews (despite violating the most core key tenets of the affirmation of faith in Judaism and Torah) appear to be more socially acceptable by many in their attempts to demonize Jews who declare to he world in all honesty that Christianity the doctrine of the NT isn't Judaism. Each of these groups also insist on negating the right of the world's Jewish people to Jewish LAW and claim Jewish identity is based on a false notion created by Jew haters that Jewish identity is based on "blood" or "race" and was indeed used by Hitler to negate the right of Jews to Jewish identity through Torah.
Jews here in YA have even been told by vocal "Messianics" that Jews who "rejected" Jesus deserved the Holocaust. Thankfully, there were also righteous Christians who joined Jews in condemning the following notorious post:
"Since unbelieving Jews have refused to accept the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-36) brought by Jesus (Matt. 26:26-28), they are condemned by God (Deut. 28) and are no longer considered "chosen." (In fact, Deut. 28:62-63 explains why God permitted the Holocaust: because the Jewish people have disobeyed Him by refusing their Messiah.)" Jews are personally insulted and called names outright when we state Jewish law and explain Judaism and these names are almost invariably attached to claims that Jews are attacking them for their belief in Jesus! A Jewish Herald-Voice I received in the mail had a headline article about how “Messianics pervert Passover at some Houston-area churches” with a subtitle, “Deceptive tactics harm healthy Jewish-Christian relations, experts say.” I have personally been involved in interfaith groups and dialog for 30 years and it is my strong belief based on the words and behaviors I've witnessed escalate, that these groups have done as much to increase antisemitism as the propaganda of the Middle East. Daily insults and false accusations of bigotry to *them* and false accusation that Jews are persecuting them because they believe in Jesus displayed to Jews in Y/A is also evidence of this. NOT ONE of the hundreds of position statements out there from all the world’s Jewish people attacks them for believing in Jesus/Yeshua/Yahoshua.
Position statements wouldn't be needed if they did not call their religion Judaism when it contradicts Judaism. Christians should be EQUALLY outraged that these people are behaving in a manner that presents NT adherents in a very bad light, rather than insist Jews to be "tolerant" of having our basic human rights disrespected and our religious identity hijacked.Source(s): EDITto reply:"One time they will tell you a Jew is someone who is born of a Jewish mother, which is contrary to Torah, and today Cher says "There is no such thing as an ethnic Jew". Which way is it?" This is illogical STRAWMAN with false premise. Jewish law IS Torah and that is where declaring citizenship via birth of Jewish mother comes from and it does NOT equate to "ethnicity". A bogus claim of contradiction that doesn't fit the statements/definitions or Torah & this situation. http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Spg_A... < from 1915 until 1975 this group, the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America was named the Hebrew Christian Alliance http://ffoz.org/info/foundation.html http://www.messianicjewish.net/aboutmj_jewish.shtm... <now compare and contrast all of the above with Statements of faith of the Southern Baptists http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp < beliefs of Baptists then to http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm < beliefs of Judaism http://jewishvoiceandopinion.com/a/JVO20090205.htm... http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-i... http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2009/12/where...
- JenniferLv 44 years ago
I think it's because what they understand a real Jew to be. Most of them understand a "Jew" to be any heir of the promises God made to Abraham and Israel. Not all of the descendants of Abraham were heirs of the promises. Abraham had two sons--Isaac and Ishmael. Only Isaac was an heir to the promises. And Isaac had two sons, too--Jacob and Esau--but only Jacob was an heir to the promises. So not all of Abraham's descendents are heirs of the promises. Whoever IS an heir to the promises, then, depends on something other than mere descent. I'm not a messianic Jew, and I don't know that much about them, but my guess would be that they define "Jew" as a person who is faithful to the covenants God has made. And since they believe God initiated a new covenant in the blood of Jesus, they figure Jews are those who are faithful to that covenant, and anybody who is not faithful to that covenant is not a Jew. That's my guess.
- Anonymous10 years ago
They (the christians)do much more than just ignore Jewish theologians (or any other school of thought for that matter). Take for example the conversion of Saul a high ranking soldier and murderer of christians. After being terrified and not able to speak for three days from what he describes as the sky parting and the risen Jesus Christ appearing in a blinding light, he then instantly became a lifelong christian professing his faith all the way to the grave nonstop. Most of the early christians who remained steadfast in their faith in Jesus Christ through torture, imprisonment,and even to the point of death, tell of the supernatural things they personally witnessed.
Not much "intelligentsia" involved in the beginning of the Christian way. It may seem a bit arrogant and stubborn, but if you see a "man" walk on water, calm storms, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, raise the dead, and finally crucified only to rise again then ascend into heaven, its kind of hard to entertain any argument from "religious scholars".
- 10 years ago
The so called "Messianic Jews" are really evangelicals trying to get Jews to convert to Christianity. Persecution didn't work so now they are trying to impose Christian meaning to Jewish symbolism and trying a new approach. They cannot even begin to really understand the Jewish viewpoint because, if you really look into it, they are Church funded. It is like trying to get the wolf in sheep's clothing, to understand the temperament of the the sheep. It simply cannot be done. They can complain all they want but the Jews won't buy it. It is simply another cheap trick to try to convert the Jews to Christianity. That is why they only target the Jews. They don't have Christians for Islam, or Islam for Buddism. It is just a dishonest approach and that is why it promotes such intellectual dishonesty.
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- DS MLv 610 years ago
Your question implies your understanding of Jew is correct yet Judaism 101 says,
***It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do.***
As Cher above said as another answer to another question:
***I don't feel comfortable following commandments in the intense Orthodox way because it doesn't match my sense of what's true in the world. When I mix in observations from science, I see Orthodoxy as very complete in & of itself... but doesn't incorporation the questions I have. I see Torah as a mixture of stories, an amazing set of conclusions coming out of them, but people written (unsure on the God inspired or the inspiration was in how it was held & used.) And other things like this.***
As you can see in this direct quote, Cher sees the Torah as a ***mixture of stories*** and is ***unsure on the God inspired***.
Nor does she see the *** the intense Orthodox way because it doesn't match my sense of what's true in the world.***
Her account of her belief changes with the questions being asked. In this question, she is back to being one with Orthodox.
So when you ask, ***when it comes to debates with Jews?*** your viewpoint of solidarity is not universal. I will not claim you are intellectual dishonesty as much as uninformed.
For example, I would like to see where ***Messianic "Jews" dedicate billions of dollars to target the Jewish religion***
Sure, I can understand a Rabbi at a loss of what God would have him/her do needing an enemy to divert their inability to lead their many diverse congregations as Moses lead the nation of Israel...but again, he heard the voice like the other prophets and so could speak specifically about what God's will was with authority. Those who can't "hear the voice of the living God of Israel who made them for a purpose" have no power to speak with authority about anything except that Messianic Jews don't fit their understanding of what a Rabbinic Jew is.
It isn't like they could say that Moses or any of the prophets would fit their understanding of what a Rabbinic Jews was given all prophets were totally dependent on the voice of God for them to speak with the authority and power of God.
No voice equals no power
No definition of Jew, no intelligent answer to your uninforned question.
No source quoted about billions targeting Raabbinic Jews equals fabrication of numbers
Hope this helps
As Allonyoav, expert in Rabbinical Judaism since birth said, ***What does he (Jesus) say? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Now this makes sense in the context of the Pagan cultures of the time when peoplekilled by stoning were killed by having stones thrown at them- as it is still done in Isalm; but it makes zero sense in Judaism where stoning meant being pushed off a cliff (or high scaffolding if there is no cliff available), and having rocks pushed down onto them if they survived the fall! (See the Talmud masechta Makos) In other words- this incident demontrates the lack of knowledge of the authors of the Chistian scriptures of Jewish practices***
Let's compare what Christian scriptures translated by Rabbinic Jews at http://hareidi.org/bible/Joshua7.htm to the undisputed expert of Rabbinic Judaism,
***25 And Joshua said: 'Why hast thou troubled us? HaShem shall trouble thee this day.' And all Israel stoned him with stones; and they burned them with fire, and stoned them with stones. 26 And they raised over him a great heap of stones, unto this day; and HaShem turned from the fierceness of His anger. Wherefore the name of that place was called The valley of Achor, unto this day.***
Obviously, the Rabbi's metaphoric translation and
the Christian's historic Rabbinically translated text of Joshua differ.
Joshua fails because he failed to demand the witnesses push Achan, family, and animals off anything let alone be***pushed off a cliff (or high scaffolding if there is no cliff available)*** Therefore, the man who commanded the sun stand still and conquered most of Israel ***makes zero sense in Judaism***. because he couldn't stone someone up to Allonyoav's standard.
And Allonyoav has been an expert since birth in Rabbinic Judaism....It is his job, after all to know these things and teach them to his congregation.
- Random PantherLv 710 years ago
If I answer this will I get lots of thumbs too?
Just passing through,this is one scrap I'm keeping out of.
- 10 years ago
This is a disgusting thread. It should be deleted. Jews and Christians are shown in the worst light.
Doesn't any have the integrity here to have this hate filled and fanitical post removed?
I find it hard to respect any of you.
I have reported it since it is both Anti-semetic and Anti-Christian.
- 10 years ago
Yes, Christian theology is predicated on misunderstanding and distorting Jewish words and concepts.
'Messianics', despite all their claims not to be Christian, follow evangelical born-again Christian theologies.
- Anonymous10 years ago
Because they have a persecution complex going on, like most fundie Christians [which is what they are].
Quote Buddy Lee....
"3. The KKK hates them just like Jews."
Actually that is incorrect. The KKK considers them Christians if you must know, albeit deluded Christians from their POV, and 'race traitors'. And the Klan dislikes a lot of different groups, so does that make all the groups they dislike Jewish by default?
Edit: Actually Buddy Lee, I am a former member, that's how I know.
- allonyoavLv 710 years ago
"So, my question is simple: Is there a reason rooted in the theology of the Messianic movement that promotes such intellectual dishonesty when it comes to debates with Jews?"
There is a very strong reason rooted in their theology- its called converting Jews. The whole reason for their deception, lies and misrepresentation is to trick the uneducated in the Jewish population into converting to Christianity. They dress themselves up as being Jewish in order to try and trick them into thinking they are jewish and thus to "win" for Jesus. In reality, they have not been that succesful with the Jeiwsh population-but they have been highly succesful with the non-Jewish community and 98% of the people in the "messianic jewish" community have zero connection to Judaism in any fashion whatsoever.
In essence, their spiritual bait and switch scam would fall apart if they heeded the objections against them and started being honest!
edit; I see multiple posters citing the revisionist nonsense that Israelites are somehow are different to Jews. That is completely wrong and it is easily shown:
The most fundamental declaraion of jewish faith, recited three time a day is the Shema, recited three times a dy- the opening declaration has been said by Jews before being massacred for saying it and reverberates down the ages as the rallying cry and defining statement of Judasim- where is it found? In the Torah, in Sefer Devarim (Book of Deuteronomy) verse 4: 4. Hear, O ISRAEL: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. ד. שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֶחָד:
Here the entire nation is referred to as ISRAEL, regardless of Tribe. Earlier, as Moshe starts his farewell speach to the Jews and is addressing the entire nation the Torah states (Sefer Devarim Chapter 1)
1. These are the words which Moses spoke to all Israel on that side of the Jordan in the desert, in the plain opposite the Red Sea, between Paran and Tofel and Lavan and Hazeroth and Di Zahav. א. אֵלֶּה הַדְּבָרִים אֲשֶׁר דִּבֶּר מֹשֶׁה אֶל כָּל יִשְׂרָאֵל בְּעֵבֶר הַיַּרְדֵּן בַּמִּדְבָּר בָּעֲרָבָה מוֹל סוּף בֵּין פָּארָן וּבֵין תֹּפֶל וְלָבָן וַחֲצֵרֹת וְדִי זָהָב:
We all see the term yehudi being applied to people not from the tribe of Yehdah- as with Mordechai in Megillat Esther (Book of Esther) Chapter 2
ה אִישׁ יְהוּדִי, הָיָה בְּשׁוּשַׁן הַבִּירָה; וּשְׁמוֹ מָרְדֳּכַי, בֶּן יָאִיר בֶּן-שִׁמְעִי בֶּן-קִישׁ--אִישׁ יְמִינִי. 5 There was a certain Jew in Shushan the castle, whose name was Mordecai the son of Jair the son of Shimei the son of Kish, a Benjamite
We can even see Yehudi being applied to somebody BEFORE THE BIRTH OF YEHUDAH! In Sefer Bereishis (Genesis) Chapter 26 וַיְהִי עֵשָׂו, בֶּן-אַרְבָּעִים שָׁנָה, וַיִּקַּח אִשָּׁה אֶת-יְהוּדִית, בַּת-בְּאֵרִי הַחִתִּי--וְאֶת-בָּשְׂמַת, בַּת-אֵילֹן הַחִתִּי. 34 And when Esau was forty years old, he took to wife YEHUDIT the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. ,
Here Esav renamed his wife YEHUDIT (the feminine form of yehudi) to try and convince his parents that he had married a righteous woman that would obey jewish law! Yehudi merely means "one who praises G-d" and was used by the followers of the religion of Avraham right from the start- here even before Ya'akov had left home and years before Yehudah was even born!
In short, the modern term "Jew" refers to any person who was of the twelve tribes and followed the religion we call Judaism today. Trying to claim that the Israelites were not the same as the Jews, is merely historical revisionism to trey and dissosociate a whole group from their own religion!
edit: James shows the typical lack of knowledge about Judaism that the "messianic jews" are a famous for! LOL Its pointless handling his misconceptions to show how silly they are because that iwould be dignifying balderdash to take it seriously!
As for the accusation I post all over the internet- it seems that the "messianic jews" have yet to learn that Yahoo! Answers is mirrored across multiple sites and even though I post only here and on my blog- many sites carry the content posted here. Fantastic actually, I only have to post once to be seen in many places!
For those interested- the tweet James seems so offended by:
seems that the "messianic jews" are trying to get at me by posting my real name on Yahoo! Answers- the question is- will Yahoo take action? 2:27 PM Mar 9th via web
Shame- what, he doesn't like people learning the truth about their cult-like tactics to try and shut their critics up? LOLSource(s): Orthodox Jew; Acting Rabbi; Torah
- 10 years ago
The Messianic Jew I knew admitted he was a Christian. The "Jew" part of Messianic Jew was in reference to his heritage. Meaning the Jewish race, not the religion.
I understand not all of them are like that though.