Jehovah's Witnesses: A simple mathematical question?

In Revelation there is the 144,000 who JWs say will go to Heaven, they say part of that number included were the Christians counted in the Book of Acts and Pauls Letters as the early Christians. The JW leaders already counted who they say are the modern members who will be part of the 144,000 who they feel will go... show more In Revelation there is the 144,000 who JWs say will go to Heaven, they say part of that number included were the Christians counted in the Book of Acts and Pauls Letters as the early Christians. The JW leaders already counted who they say are the modern members who will be part of the 144,000 who they feel will go to Heaven, but the numbers calculated are pretty well kept secret since no one else knows those real numbers.

Then we go to the greater flock which the leaders say will be on earth. In Revelation 7:9 it says there will be a great multitude which no man could number.

My Questions are...

There are 7.1 million JWs worldwide presently on this planet, and every year they keep calculating all the members. They have been counting all the worldwide members from generation to generation since the time of Russell. How can the greater flock be a great multitude which no man can number when the organization has already counted them all since the Bible Students were founded by Russell?

Is this a great multitude which no man has counted?

(Total number of JWs since Russell) minus (the modern JWs of the 144,000 who are not part of the early Christians). This equals to the total counted number of the greater flock.

After looking into all the calculations presented here, have your leaders already counted the greater flock? Every year it gets recounted again and again.

Tim F

I am a True Jehovah's Witness, a Witness of YHWH, the Holy Trinity who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the Three are One. Beware the false witnesses who are in the Watchtower Organization!
Update: Trying to Care...Man has already counted the greater flock, and it will be counted every year. You are looking at the verse in a different way as figurative, and then you are saying the complete opposite as literal with a "one man counting the whole flock scenario", which way is it? Strange because... show more Trying to Care...Man has already counted the greater flock, and it will be counted every year. You are looking at the verse in a different way as figurative, and then you are saying the complete opposite as literal with a "one man counting the whole flock scenario", which way is it?

Strange because even the Watchtower '98 1/1 p.6 has used a different set of tricks with almost the same negative results...

"So far, more than five million souls have been gathered in—“a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” (Revelation 7:9) No one can say how great that crowd will finally be, since no man is able to number it."

First they say they counted it and then they say the crowd will increase every year and therefore the final number could not be counted. It seems like they want to use a futuristic number which no man can guess, and say this is why no man is able to count them. This was not part of John's vision in the Bible.
Update 2: Angelo...In the end we read that God will choose those that were taken from the Great Tribulation. Are you saying John was wrong when he said he saw this great crowd God has chosen which no man can count? How is it today we can have a riot in the streets and the police were able to say how many hundreds of... show more Angelo...In the end we read that God will choose those that were taken from the Great Tribulation. Are you saying John was wrong when he said he saw this great crowd God has chosen which no man can count?

How is it today we can have a riot in the streets and the police were able to say how many hundreds of thousands have participated in this riot and how many others were mere bystanders?
Update 3: The Israelites were able to count 1.3 million fighting men all over Israel, and they used the most primitive method of counting them all. 2 Samuel 24:9 (New International Version) 9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could... show more The Israelites were able to count 1.3 million fighting men all over Israel, and they used the most primitive method of counting them all.

2 Samuel 24:9 (New International Version)

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
Update 4: I don't agree the JW hypothesis that the number John said no man can count is a futuristic number which no man can guess to count. John did not say anything about a number which no man can "prophesy" to count, that is unbiblical.
Update 5: grnlow...In Acts 2:34 it says David did not ascend to Heaven when he said that Psalm prophecy if you read the context... Acts 2:32-36 (New International Version) 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the... show more grnlow...In Acts 2:34 it says David did not ascend to Heaven when he said that Psalm prophecy if you read the context...

Acts 2:32-36 (New International Version)
32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '

36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

I would like to see you show biblical proof that Abel will be one of the 144,000 when he existed at the time when he never even heard of Jesus, while in Luke 16:19-21 Abraham is already there? Are you also saying Abraham will be one of the 144,000? Can you give any Scripture passages that say he is not?
Update 6: *...not there in Heaven?
Update 7: Oh, now I get it. Abel and Abraham are part of the great crowd, not the 144,000. How complicated things can get in one religion!
Update 8: Star and Lifelong Student...You have not yet read grnlow's answer regarding Abel as one of the 144,000... "The 144,000 have been accumulating since Jesus' death in 33CE. The "great crowd" though have been adding up since Abel! That is considerably longer than years 1879 or 33." The... show more Star and Lifelong Student...You have not yet read grnlow's answer regarding Abel as one of the 144,000...

"The 144,000 have been accumulating since Jesus' death in 33CE. The "great crowd" though have been adding up since Abel! That is considerably longer than years 1879 or 33."

The Watchtower quote above already stated over 5 million souls were gathered for this great crowd in 1998. There are 7.1 million JWs worldwide now, so what does your logic suggests?
Update 9: Oh, now I get it. Abel and Abraham are part of the great crowd, not the 144,000. How complicated things can get in one religion!
Update 10: How is it that Abel and others before Jesus was to be saved into a great crowd by a Saviour that he never even heard about?

Isn't Abraham already in Heaven as the Bible already suggests in the Gospel of Luke? What about Elijah who was lifted up to Heaven in a whirlwind in 2 Kings?
Update 11: I apologize for the double posts of "Oh, now I get it...". That was done only once yesterday, the other one placed in for three days ago is probably an internet glitch.
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